Sándor Lau [How to Invest in Second Mortgages]

Junior mortgage notes or second’s can be a cheap way to source notes in the current frothy market if you use the right buying criteria. On today’s podcast episode, Sándor Lau will be sharing his strategy for buying junior liens and a few tips on what to avoid when looking at second’s

Podcast Audio:

Noted Financial

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Transcript:

Brecht Palombo: Welcome back everybody, to another episode of the DistressedPro Professional podcast series. I’m here with Sandor Lau. Did I say that right?

Sándor Lau: It’s Sándor. Like Sean Connery walks in the door. Or, you can remember Sándor, Lord of Gondor, if you’re a Lord of the Rings fan.

Brecht Palombo: Oh, okay. All right. Sándor Lau.

Sándor Lau: Yes.

Brecht Palombo: Now I’ve got it. All right, thanks. And I asked Sándor to be on here today because it was a Tuesday before Thanksgiving, and I had this wild spike in my traffic. We had our organic traffic tripled, almost quadrupled on a single day. And I said, “Wow, everything I’ve been working on has finally come to fruition.”

But in fact, what had happened was I looked, and you were written up in the Wall Street Journal. You were in the Wall Street Journal, and whatever keywords were in that article, people went to Google them and searched them, and just blew up the traffic on my site. And then I had to … I actually didn’t have the membership, I had to buy a subscription to the Journal, just that day, to get in there to read your article.

Sándor Lau: Rupert Murdoch and the shareholders thank you.

Brecht Palombo: Ought to thank you, I guess. And so I went and I found Sándor, and invited him on here to talk to us about what all the buzz was about, there. And hopefully to educate us a little bit on how he’s doing what he’s doing and why.

Brecht Palombo: So can you tell us a little bit about your background in this, and how you came to be featured in the Journal?

Sándor Lau: So, yeah. It was 2007, beginning of the recession before really the data had come in. I had come back to the United States from New Zealand, where I had gone to grad school and had a career as a filmmaker, and realized, “Oh!” The artist part is really great. The starring part, not so great.

Brecht Palombo: That was good, yep.

Sándor Lau: So I read up, tired to figure out what I could do to build a financial future, and I realized: Real estate. This is it. I read all these investing books, I tried to find one that told you about the stock that pays rent, but I couldn’t find a single one. So I realized, this is my thing. I got a regular job, so I can get a W2 and invest in real estate and get loans.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: And realized that collecting rent is a little bit harder than it was described in the books.

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: So I said, “Okay, there has to be a better way.” Changing the world and changing other people is way too hard, but changing yourself in adapting can yield great results. So I’m a voracious reader. I’m always reading books about business, investing. And I read this book that had one paragraph in the entire book. It says, “Oh yeah, instead of … ” It was about buying foreclosures, or you could just invest in those. Then I’m like, “Oh, doin’ that.” I read all the books I could find, publicly available, at the time, which was three.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: And one of ’em had the author’s post office box in Florida, and one of ’em that’s got an email. I’m like, “I wanna learn. Will you teach me?” He was like, “No, but go to the Paper Source Conference and learn from the people there.”

Sándor Lau: And I did. That was 2013. I was still in a rough spot myself. I had to pay all these mortgages, fix things when tenants break and steal things, mess with the electrical, and then called the city and said, “Oh, look at this. Slumlords providing substandard housing. Look at this electrical that’s all broken.”

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: Among other shenanigans, microwave out the window, naked people running down the hallway.

Brecht Palombo: Oh, perfect.

Sándor Lau: Bodily fluids off the balcony onto the other tenants.

Brecht Palombo: Ah, nice.

Sándor Lau: I gotta admit, not something, what my first real estate teacher called intestinal fortitude for this. No, frankly, the very deep pockets. Real estate is still the most amazing business, but to be rich, the best way is to already be rich and get richer. Starting with very little, it’s that building at the beginning is the hardest thing. And real estate, it’s a long term play. You make your money in decades, not days.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: So, that was still my plan, but I had to find a different way. Learned about note investing, and the first time I saw videos on YouTube from my mentor, Mr. Gordon Moss, who was all about the seconds. I’m like, “I’m completely in.” And here’s … Second mortgages, in the simplest way I can find, second mortgages with a performing first mortgage. It tells you most of what you need to know.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: This is a person who wants to keep their home?

Brecht Palombo: Yep.

Sándor Lau: They have a job or some form of income?

Brecht Palombo: Yep.

Sándor Lau: And it’s like having the best property manager in the world. They take care of the house as if they owned it.

Brecht Palombo: Sure.

Sándor Lau: Because they do! So, in some senses, you’re like a business partner with the borrowers. If the market is good, it’s good for you and for them. If they do positive behavior, namely staying current on their rent, it’s good for you and for them.

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: So here’s Sándor’s theory of why seconds come first, and it’s the sandwich theory of notes.

Brecht Palombo: Okay.

Sándor Lau: You have Sándor’s sandwich theory of second mortgage investing. Right? If you have a chart, real estate … Here, this chart, the lower part of this sandwich is the value of real estate over time. Right?

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: There can be blips up and down in the short term, but over the past 10,000-ish years, real estate has gone up. People don’t grow tired of living indoors. There is, unlike a lot of companies in the marketplace, there is an inherent value to it. It’s not a speculative value. People need places to live, places to work, places to exist.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: This is the rising value of real estate over time. People need a place to live in.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: Top half of the sandwich. The bottom half of the sandwich is the balance of the first mortgage over time. We’ve chosen and carefully and underwritten in our purchasing, for borrowers who are paying their first mortgage. It is eventually going down. And eventually, may be paid off.

And the filling in the middle of the sandwich is the equity securing the second mortgage. The second mortgage, which, if it is being paid down, that’s great, you’re getting paid. But if it’s not getting paid, ultimately the debt of the second mortgage is rising up, so you’re secured by a bigger and bigger slice of that equity in the middle of the sandwich.

Sándor Lau: A lot of people will invest in notes with the intent, or … In the first mortgage, what’s the intent or goal of foreclosing on the property? Of taking back that security?

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: But, from my very limited experience in first mortgages, and frankly, my experience in low-end rental properties is there are such great risks. $500,000-ish house, a borrower or tenant could do some damage to it, maybe it would lower the value of the property by 5%, maybe 10%, maybe 15%.

But something in a $50,000 or a $100,000 house, a borrower or tenant could do catastrophic damage to their property, lowering the value by 50% or more, or maybe, the property is so worthless, it would … Just getting it off your hands so that someone could scrape it off with a bulldozer as a control for the environmental hazards there, is the best solution for that property.

Sándor Lau: So we’re looking, investing in second mortgages for responsible homeowners who want to pay, who want to keep their home. And you can check the credit report, you can see their payment history on the first mortgage. The second mortgage has defaulted, and we’re virtually always invested in bank paper.

Brecht Palombo: Okay.

Sándor Lau: Written by very clever lawyers, secured by some of the finest words that were ever printed by great legal minds.

Brecht Palombo: Yep.

Sándor Lau: That second mortgage is an obligation, and borrowers will often pay not based on their equity. The Wall Street Journal Market Watch publication published results from, I think it’s their Federal Reserve study, showing that the overwhelming majority, more than 70% of underwater homeowners who pay, it’s not because of moral hazard.

Right? It’s not because they feel a great moral duty. It’s not because it’s an investment. It’s not because of protecting their credit. It’s not because they’re worried about getting sued by the bank. It’s ’cause they wanna keep their home.

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: That’s it. So, a most basic human desire. Individual human beings have a lot of variety in them, but overall, human nature is fairly static. People’s desires, over a large group, over time, are very consistent. People pay their mortgage ’cause they wanna keep their house.

Brecht Palombo: Right. So that’s what you’re looking for. So you’re solely in the band of where you’re looking for seconds, where that’s non-performing, but the first is performing. And I assume, as we’re drawing the lineup and to the right, you’ve got some targeted geographies, also, that you’re pursuing. Do you have filters for that, or how do you approach where you’re buying and what other criteria goes into it?

Sándor Lau: So, that’s a great question. I mean, I have … My preference is half a million dollar house with a smaller second, say $50,000. If you get into the $100,000 range for most people, even people with a half a million dollar house, if it’s $100,000 it may as well be $100 million. It’s so much that people feel like it’s overwhelming. And seconds, you can diversify your risk over more properties by investing in smaller loans. If something goes wrong with this one, that one, you have a diversified pool.

Sándor Lau: So we’re looking for nice houses and non-judicial states, where it doesn’t go in front of a judge. Do a lot of states where there is mandatory mediation, which borrowers and frankly, mostly their attorneys, are gonna take great advantage of. Borrower refuses to communicate, refuses to work with you, doesn’t pick up the phone, doesn’t respond to anything. Foreclosure is a great motivator. People who didn’t pick up the phone, don’t respond to anything, all of a sudden get engaged.

Sándor Lau: But I’ll give you a great example from the portfolio. We had people in a state in New England that will go unnamed, they say, “Oh, oh, oh, hang on. We want mediation. We’ve ignored every community for two years, but we really wanna mediate.” They don’t show up to the mediation. They would have to pay their lawyer to be there to represent them.

We get a notice, mandated by the court, says, “Oh,” they didn’t feel like comin’ to the last one, but they really want another one. Okay. We have to pay our lawyer to show up to that. They don’t show again, and three times after that, they filed bankruptcy.

Brecht Palombo: Wow, yes.

Sándor Lau: So you asked about geography. Yeah, my preference would be half a million dollar houses, paying the first mortgage, in non-judicial states, but I would rather be picky about price than geography.

Brecht Palombo: Hmm, okay.

Sándor Lau: So like my mentor Gordon taught, there are no bad loans, only bad prices.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: And frankly, some loans that we had thought to be worthless turned out to be excellent. Bought them at a very low price. And frankly, some loans that we put a lot of money into didn’t work out that well, so…

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: There are great statistics out there somewhere that is probably very proprietary. There’s a certain amount of science to it, and a certain amount of alchemy and intuition. I mean, running much more of an artisanal shop than any large institution would.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah. So there’s sort of two follow up things I’d say from that. One is that I wanna go back to bankruptcy in a minute, but the other thing I wanted to ask you about is the valuation, ’cause that’s one of the primary things that people ask me all the time.

They’re like, “Well, what’s the value of the note?” And, “How do I know what this thing’s worth?” And what I really try to communicate is that it’s a matter of what you need for a return, or what kind of return you’re willing to take.

Brecht Palombo: So talk a little bit about, if you could, how you think about what you need to pay when you’re buying. Does that make sense?

Sándor Lau: Yeah. That’s a great question. So I certainly think about the market rate. And there are very different market rates, based on geography, is a lot of it. Most people in the second space have the same preferences that I do, non-judicial states, nice houses. I don’t wanna have to take a property back. I think I’ve foreclosed on 10-ish properties out of more than 200 notes in the last five years.

Brecht Palombo: That’s pretty good.

Sándor Lau: I would rather not.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: They don’t work out nearly as well as finding a positive, cooperative solution with the borrower. But, if they don’t respond, you can accept not getting paid, you can sell the note, or you can press the foreclosure.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah, yeah.

Sándor Lau:
Brecht Palombo: So in terms of valuation, when you’re thinking about how are you gonna put a value on a note, is there a return that you’re looking for? If I’m gonna invest in this, I need to get at least X out of it in order to come up with your strike price?

Sándor Lau: So it is so very difficult to even estimate what you will get out of each individual note, and there’s very … To talk about pricing, retail pricing on an exchange or a one-off note is drastically different than bulk pricing, where you’re buying a pool and you might get a big spreadsheet of loans. Dozens or hundreds of loans, you need to bid, probably quickly, probably sometimes in a week or less, and say what you are offering. You kinda need to buy at a can’t lose price.

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: I mean, the overall portfolio return that I need to make is a number, I’m not gonna say it on the public record, but it’s a number that most people who are familiar with stock or regular real estate investing would say is unrealistic and can’t be achieved. Okay, you’re welcome to believe that. But the returns in this business, done right, outpace anything else in real estate that I’ve ever heard of. And it’s partly because of that leverage. Right?

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: Typically, what I like … Here’s a good metric that I think I can answer in a more transparent way for you.

Brecht Palombo: Okay.

Sándor Lau: I like to think of it as a stock option, or as a down payment on an FHA loan. Over time, fairly consistently, I’ve been paying somewhere around the down payment for an FHA loan as a reflection of a value of the home rather than a reflection of the unpaid principal balance of the note. Right?

Brecht Palombo: Yep.

Sándor Lau: So if you buy a regular house with an FHA loan, you buy that $500,000 house with an FHA loan, three and a half percent of the value of that house, it’s a small down payment, but you gotta make all the rest of those payments until the end of the loan, or you’re in a lot of trouble.

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: You don’t have the option of, “Oh, sorry. Tenants didn’t pay rent. No harm, no foul. Right?” No, that’s not how it works with the bank. But if you’re the investor in that loan, you paid 3.5% down, what’s half of $35,000? $18,000, something like that.

Brecht Palombo: Right, yeah.

Sándor Lau: If it goes right, you’re owed a multiple of that. I can tell you the lowest end, the lowest I’ve ever paid on a note in a bulk pool was a dollar.

Brecht Palombo: Wow.

Sándor Lau: The highest, as a percentage, I paid $0.60 on the dollar once, and still did great once, it was actually in your hometown, Bend, Oregon.

Brecht Palombo: Oh, nice.

Sándor Lau: Brecht, and I don’t do that very often. You’re concentrating a lot of risk in that one loan. There are other loans you could buy that might be cheaper. They might be less desirable, might be in a judicial state, might be protected by less equity.

The borrower might have a sketchier pay history on the first mortgage, but seeing that opportunity, seeing through that opportunity and risk that other people can’t see through and getting it at the right price opens you up to a whole world of opportunity. You have so many exist strategies once you have that note, that you really got for the option price, for the 3.5% FHA down payment.

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: And if it doesn’t work, you get to walk away. And also, if it doesn’t work, you have the option to sit tight. You’re not obligated to press collections. You’re not obligated to start foreclosure. Maybe something’s not working now, and maybe over time, the borrower’s situation changes. The real estate market changes.

I have, sometimes, also bought seconds where the first is also non-performing. I can tell you, in the marketplace, those are not really that desirable. People are not really looking for a note in second position, where the first mortgage is foreclosing, and you would only get paid if there’s money from the auction left over after the first gets paid, and after the first destroys a great amount of equity in the house, just by the manner in which it’s sold.

Sándor Lau: Cash buyers at the courthouse steps are a very limited market compared to all the people on the multiple listing services.

Brecht Palombo: Yes.

Sándor Lau: So you buy that. The first mortgage not getting paid? Of course, it does spell trouble. There’s something going wrong, but just like with us, that first mortgage foreclosing often spurs the borrowers to action. So often times, it’ll spur them to modify the first mortgage and get … Every first mortgage, regular bank modification is highly favorable to the borrowers. And we have the borrower in LA Metro who’s got almost a million dollar first mortgage. His payment is $2,500 a month.

Brecht Palombo: Wow.

Sándor Lau: You can’t get that kind of loan by applying for it.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah, no.

Sándor Lau: To get a good loan, you have to have great credit. To get an incredible loan, you have to have horrible credit, default on the bank, and that’s the only other life, and then you say, “Oh, thanks for not making your payments. How would you like 2.5% over 40 years?”

Brecht Palombo: Right.

Sándor Lau: Uh, yes. So if god forbid you should have to foreclose on that house, you would own it subject to the first mortgage, and there’s nothing stopping you from continuing to pay that first mortgage on a monthly basis, and hold the property as a rental, sell it subject to that first mortgage, on those incredible terms. That’s kinda the only situation where a luxury property would pencil out as a rental.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah. So tell me about bankruptcy, because that’s one of the things, as my background, back starting 2006, I’ve conducted … I was an auctioneer. I’ve conducted hundreds of foreclosures. Mostly commercial, but not all.

And what I’ve found is that not everybody, but a lot of people file bankruptcy. And I think that scares folks off, as investors on the second. Well, what happens in that situation, and how do you approach that, or what’s your hedge for that, and what’s your take on how that’s dealt with, or how do you deal with that?

Sándor Lau: So bankruptcy, we’re screening very carefully for past bankruptcies when we’re buying notes. So if there would be bankruptcies, you knew about it in advance. And some bankruptcies start while you hold the note, usually as a result of your actions and collection on the borrower.

I’m usually looking for bankruptcy notes because one, people are afraid of it. There are complexities that can be solved, and I know how to solve, so it drives the price down, though you can still have a great outcome of the borrower paying.

Sándor Lau: Chapter seven bankruptcy means neither the first nor the second mortgage is a personal obligation for the borrower, meaning you can’t sue them personally for the debt. Basically, I assume everyone in our portfolio’s judgment-proof, anyway. Even if you could get a judgment on them, it’s probably worthless, anyway. Collecting on that would be harder than collecting on the mortgage. So chapter seven bankruptcy, in the past, the lien stays on the property.

You have the right to foreclose, and borrowers pay for the exact same reason that everyone pays. Not because of moral hazard, not because you are gonna foreclose, not because of their credit, not because they think it’s the right thing to do, or ’cause it’s an investment. They wanna keep their house. That [inaudible 00:21:34] bankruptcy doesn’t change that.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: Borrowers will file bankruptcy while you are the note holder, and frankly, as long as you have equity, it can be a good deal. And frankly, even if you don’t have … If they file chapter seven, that means they’re getting rid of what probably brought them in the first place: Credit cards

Brecht Palombo: Medical bills.

Sándor Lau: Medical bills.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: That take people down, and by getting rid of those, all of a sudden they have that same income that they could use for the things that do remain. It’s not a personal obligation, but maybe they don’t keep their house without it. If they file a chapter 13, if you have equity, you could be in a very good position, because they have something even more to gain.

They don’t just have keepin’ their house, they have … Chapter 13, it’s a payment plan. Over time, usually three to five years, they don’t get rid of all their debts, but there are two buckets they have. You’ve got the secured debt bucket, and the unsecured debt bucket, in bankruptcy.

Sándor Lau: Secured debts are in a priority position. People will typically be paying a small fraction of their unsecured debts over that time, and the rest will go away. The secured debts they’re gonna typically need to pay both the regular monthly payment amount for the mortgage and a proportional amount of the arrears, all the back interest that have accrued over time since they defaulted.

It’s kind of a way that a borrower can get an automatic payment plan. And, they have even more to gain by keeping their word on this. If they don’t, and frankly, most chapter 13 bankruptcies, ask different websites. They’d say only 10%, say a third, will actually complete their bankruptcy plan.

Brecht Palombo: Sure.

Sándor Lau: But, people who are paying that first mortgage, who are homeowners, they have a more powerful motivation. So if you’ve got equity in the property, it’s a pretty reliable way to get paid on a monthly basis. If you don’t have equity in the property, they can strip the second mortgage. If the balance of the first mortgage is equal or more than the market value of the house … And market value of the house, again, a fairly debatable subject, in court with the judge.

If there’s no equity, then yes, they can strip your second mortgage. They can make it go away after they complete three to five years of the plan. During which, probably, just like the sandwich theory, the value of the house is going up, and the balance of the first mortgage is going down. So if they don’t complete the plan, you could be in a more advantageous position in this instance, that you are protected by more security. God forbid you should have to foreclose, you’re in a better equity position for that to happen.

Sándor Lau: Not only a better equity position but god forbid you should have to take that back, we’re looking at first and seconds, most of which, at the bank paper, most of which was originated in the real estate boom, 2003 to 2007-ish.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: If you got a house subject to a first loan that’s already seasoned since 2007, it’s 2019, now. If it’s a 30-year loan, you only got 18 years left to go until that’s paid off and you’re deeper into the amortization schedule. So you are paying down more and more principal every month on that loan.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah. So I didn’t tell you I was gonna ask you this, but I feel like this is a natural way for us to lead into what we’re gonna tell people how they’re gonna find you after this. But so we’ve talked a little bit about where we were and how you got here. What do you see going forward from here? What are you expecting in the note business over the next one, three, five years? And I know nobody’s got a crystal ball, we won’t hold you to it, but if you could look out a little bit, what do you think you see out there?

Sándor Lau: I’m not an economist. Here’s what I see: We’re getting older and older … That critical mass of second mortgages originated ’03 to ’07 or ’08, is diminishing.

Brecht Palombo: Yep.

Sándor Lau: And many of them are coming to maturity. A lot of those loans were written as 10 or 15-year loans. So banks are going to need to unload more of these, and are gonna be pressured to do so in the next two, three, five years. What’s that thing, Brecht, that history does over and over again?

Brecht Palombo: It doesn’t repeat, does it?

Sándor Lau: Oh yes! It repeats itself! A new recession is always coming. If you’re a Game of Thrones fan, the Starks are always right. Winter is always coming. It’s a question of when.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: So that is going to mean difficulty for many people. And it’s not something I’m happy about. Yet, at the same time, is going to be a great opportunity, both to acquire regular real estate which has … One of the biggest advantages of regular real estate are the tax advantages that you don’t really have in notes. And ultimately, for someone who’s paying a mortgage, there’s gonna be a day where it’s paid off, you don’t get to collect payments anymore. There’s no such thing as last rent payment.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah.

Sándor Lau: So it’ll be a great opportunity to acquire property and to buy notes at a bigger discount. When people think the sky is falling, that is a great opportunity to invest. So for people who are learning the business now, here is what I would repose to you: Notes are selling at a higher price than I’ve ever seen in my limited time, in five years, in the business.

There’s still great money to be made. Skilled people can make money in any market. Build those skills now. Learn now so you can identify and take advantage of the great opportunities and the people’s problems that you can solve when the next recession does come.

Sándor Lau: People have been defaulting on their debts since there was debt. The Code of Hammurabi describes how to secure a loan with real estate and what happens if people don’t pay. This aspect of human nature and finance is not changing.

Brecht Palombo: I totally agree. So lets’ talk a little bit about how people can find you, and what they should do next if they’re listening to this and … ‘Cause I think we just gave ’em a fire hose. Right? And so if they wanna go unpack this, and get deeper into it, what should they do?

Sándor Lau: So I put a great deal of free educational material on my website. It’s notedfinancial.com, N-O-T-E-D financial.com, where I have YouTube videos of my past presentations. I have articles that I’ve written. I have links to other people’s educational materials. I have an Amazon reading list, of every book that I know that is written on this subject of note investing, and is publicly available on Amazon. I think it’s somewhere, 10 to 15 of them available.

Sándor Lau: We live in a grand age where I do recommend people find a mentor, take a class. But before doing that, invest more than 100 hours of your time reading and studying so you know enough when you’re trying to evaluate who to learn from, whether to know whether they know what they’re talking about.

Brecht Palombo: Sure, yep. I agree with that.

Sándor Lau: I have one other educational thing. On my website, people can subscribe to my updates or follow me on social media. I’ll always post coupons for any of the conferences that I speak out. The next one coming up is the Paper Source Note Symposium. It’s April 11th through 13th in Vegas. The coupon code …

The test is spelling my name right. It’s S-A-N-D-O-R. It’s pronounced Sándor. That is on my website at notedfinancial.com. The cost of that education is the cheapest investment with the greatest return you will ever have. That’s not only education in learning facts, but investing in relationships, which in this business, are … Frankly, someone with great relationships and an okay grasp on the industry will do much better than someone with an excellent grasp and poor relationships.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah. All right, well I appreciate you comin’ on here, Sándor. That was just … I really appreciate you taking us through that whole thing. I think if people … Probably, people are gonna have to slow this down a little bit and listen to it a few times, ’cause we did just give ’em a ton of information in there.

Brecht Palombo: But the other thing that you should do is go over to notedfinancial.com, where you can get some of his free information and definitely show up to the Symposium. Are they calling it a Symposium?

Sándor Lau: Yes. Paper Source Note Symposium.

Brecht Palombo: And it’s a very reasonably priced thing, a few hundred dollars. It’s not an expensive thing to attend. You just gotta get yourself to Vegas and all that. Right?

Sándor Lau: That’s exactly right.

Brecht Palombo: Yeah, well thanks for comin’ on here. Sandor Lau, and this notedfinancial.com, and make it a great day, and well talk to you soon.

Sándor Lau: Thanks for the opportunity.

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